Cross Breeds - Absolute *fear* ~ Do you think a dog would react?

Absolute fear ~ Do you think a dog would react?

There is always the ongoing discussions/questions/answers about whether or not the average *pet* dog (meaning NO Professional Personal Protection Training) would indeed come to the aid of it's human if in fact the human was in a real situation of fearing for their life. I have read numerous times the human thinks their dog is *protecting* them when they bark and growl at another human who comes near. I have read about how people have set up a *situation* in which a stranger (to the dog) comes into the house and acts in a manner which would be threatening. The result of these experiments is the dog barking, growling and show of teeth. ( Or simply retreating. ) Neither of the above is actual *protection*. The animal in the first instance is not protecting but simply owning it's human and is resource guarding. The resource, in these situations is the human. The second situation cannot be perceived as protecting or guarding of the human but is simply the animal reacting with anxiety, stress and confusion. The dog is simply fearful IT will be hurt and is not trying to save the human's life. Why? Because human fear cannot be acted. You cannot create genuine fear. Without a true threat to your life there is nothing for the animal to pick up on, so to speak. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is a excerpt from Discovery Health explaining the human body's reaction to a true threat: The sudden flood of epinephrine, norepinephrine and dozens of other hormones causes changes in the body that include: •heart rate and blood pressure increase •pupils dilate to take in as much light as possible •veins in skin constrict to send more blood to major muscle groups (responsible for the "chill" sometimes associated with fear -- less blood in the skin to keep it warm) •blood-glucose level increases •muscles tense up, energized by adrenaline and glucose (responsible for goose bumps -- when tiny muscles attached to each hair on surface of skin tense up, the hairs are forced upright, pulling skin with them) •smooth muscle relaxes in order to allow more oxygen into the lungs •nonessential systems (like digestion and immune system) shut down to allow more energy for emergency functions •trouble focusing on small tasks (brain is directed to focus only on big picture in order to determine where threat is coming from) All of these physical responses are intended to help you survive a dangerous situation by preparing you to either run for your life or fight for your life (thus the term "fight or flight"). Fear -- and the fight-or-flight response in particular -- is an instinct that every animal possesses. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you were actually fearing for your life, transmitting all of the above, do you think there is a good possibility that a dog (matters not the breed or size) would KNOW this and react with full aggression towards the aggressor? In other words, do you think a dog would fight to the death to save it's human's life? The flood of epinephrine, norepinephrine and dozens of other hormones do release a very distinctive smell. This smell may not be obvious to most humans but there is no doubt a dog can smell it simply because their senses are greater than a human. If a PP trained dog is in a situation the human cannot give the command to attack, will the animal just sit there and do nothing? Or will it's instincts (and training) kick in? The average *pet* cannot do this. But there are exceptions. The PP dog is trained. The PP dog is also aware of the smell of true fear. Same dog but not yet trained in PP. When does the *instinct* come in to play? Never? Because the dog has not been properly trained yet? So the instinct to *protect* must be trained? Or is it simply these dogs have the correct temperment, fearlessness and drive to be trained? The *pet* dog with sound nerves will also wait? For what? It's brain to comminuate the fact it's owner is being attacked? While the PP dog is trained because it possesses the genetic qualities for such training but most simple pet do NOT have the genes? What about the ones who do? This question did not arise about my early morning walk with Launi & meeting up with some homeboys. Launi's reaction is still a mystery to me.( I do not believe she was *protecting* ) But are there not dogs with the genes that will kick in? Dogs with much self confidence and no fear? *Pet* dogs on this level will smell real fear, therefore reacting in such a way the animal is driven by the sense to protect? Yes, human aggression in any dog is not acceptable unless such dog is professionally trained. But, is this *black and white*? We know very little about the workings of the human brain. How much do we really know about the canine brain? This question was prompted by a life threatening situation concerning 2 of my female friends who live together as a couple. They have a Lab/mix (which is highly fearful and not grounded). They also own a 7 year old Rottie mix. Not sure what else the dog has in it. 3 weeks ago Melanie & Kat were preparing for their 2:00 am paper route. They live in a diverse neighborhood. In the process of getting dressed, in a hurry because they were running late, Mel had left the front door ajar. Kat was showering. Mel walked into the living room and came face to face with a man she did not know. He was armed with a knife. He did not immediately threaten her. Mel said she sensed disorientation due to either drugs/alcohol or both. The dogs were on the screened porch. Mel is a strong woman in mind and body. She said as she was backing away towards the bedroom (where a weapon was kept) the man moved forward. Kat was still in the bathroom. Mel shouted for Kat. This all played out in l less than 2 minutes. Anna the Rottie mix, tore through the screened porch went through the back yard and entered the house by the front door. Anna suffered 2 serious knife wounds, the intruder was bitten (how badly is not known). The intruder retreated, Anna followed. Mel now fearful for her dog's life, ran after Anna. She was 2 houses down. Rushed to the emergency vet clinic. Surgery and is healing fine. Their Lab mix was wandering the neighborhood. A police report was filed. The intruder has not been found.

Public Comments

yup
I'm not quite sure if it would fight to the death, but most dogs would have that instinct and risk their livesTO SOME EXTENT to save their owners.
Whew, that was a long one. I'll answer your last question.....NO. It will defend or retreat to protect itself unless it has been professionally trained to do otherwise. You already said this was the "average joe" dog, so no. There "may" be a very rare instance of this, but you'd still have to PROVE that the dog's actions were intended to fight for it's human. How would one actually do that? We see in the media all the time that "dog protects it's master", BUT where IS the proof? How can one tell for SURE? Add: Just wanted to let you know that sometimes you make my head hurt. Sometimes your questions are pretty deep for this "average joe", and my answer is only MY OPINION. I have NO formal training on this subject at all.
An average pet dog? Not likely. A PP probably would. I think an average pet would engage the threat but after a good strike or injury it would turn tail. Most pet dogs don't have the nerve to stand up to a real beating in such a serious situation.
In most cases no it would depend on temperament and I don't think many dogs have that temperament needed to take on a human in a fight to the death.
I have a pit bull that's very well trained and will protect me. If friends or family come over and we start to roughhouse, he will come up to them and grab them with his mouth. he will never bit unless im in real danger but dogs will protect their owner.
Do I think a dog would fight to the death? Untrained, a very rare dog may. Do I think a dog would put up a good fight? Some, maybe, yes. Do I think most pet dogs would? No. Dogs have strong survival instincts. Even in the wild, wild canines will abandon a fight if they are overpowered. Why would a domesticated dog, who has had much much more of the fight bred out of them, be any less inclined to run. There are plenty of examples of dogs doing exactly nothing in a situation where their owner was experiencing a truly fearful situation. Many of the stories on here of a dog reacting is not a situation where there is a true fear and true THREAT to the owner. And lets not forget, if the dog has no other option but to fight, it will. -------------- Oops, forgot to add, lets not forget thousands of years of being bred specifically NOT to be human aggressive. And you are right, you can't replicate fear. Your list doesn't include a scent that is associated with fear, any seasoned dog handler will tell you exists. Many handlers will tell you they see the moment where the dog makes that connection between that fear scent and what the whole tracking game is about. ------------------- See, now, I know many people would view Kaper as protective. Many would believe he would fight for me. Sometimes I even think about it. But thinking about the situation you just described, I highly suspect Kaper would engage the person, but not as protection. He is very territorial. He is also not clear in the head (I gave an example in another one of your questions), so I think that would play a huge part in him continuing to fight. I attribute it more to those factors than to protection, or instinct to protect. But I also think things may be different outside of our residence. You are right, we don't know exactly how a dog's mind works. And there are so many factors to the situation that can vary for any dog. Personally, my view is if the dog acts in a way that protects, great, just don't expect it and especially don't rely on it. I think it is a dangerous idea that our dogs will protect us. I am not directing this at you, just a general statement. I am also offended by those who say it depends on the bond. I don't think that has much to do with it. I am sure your friends are as bonded with the Lab mix as they are the Rottie. They are simply different dogs.
2 cases...2 different GSD's... First ran out my door and grabbed a guy by the throat as he tried to get my 6yr old daughter..Grabbed that guy thru the drivers window.. 2nd dog broke from my grip at the park and ran to a car where the guy was exposing himself to children.. My dogs came from parents that were bred as Gaurd Dogs..They do have the genetics in their pups as I have shown articles on this subject before..
Only if it was professionally trained to do so. Otherwise it would react to save its own a$$. Dogs donm't automatically protect their owners without some sort of PPD training.
Its a myth that a pet dog will automatically protect its owner that is about to be attacked or is being attacked. There is the occasional dog that will join in a fight but most dogs unless specifically trained to attack on command would find the situation very frightening and would be more likely to "nip" at random and run or stand nearby barking and yelping or just plain run off and hide somewhere. An untrained dog will basically put its own safety first before its owners. People that think their dog is protecting them when it barks at an approaching human are deluding themselves. The dog is of a nervous disposition and is trying to protect its self and not its owner. This can be shown by tying the dog to a post and have a person walk towards it. The dog will react in the same manner and if the person gets too close the dog will either retreat and try to dig a hole to hide in or try to escape from the tether. Ears will be back and the tail between the legs. The classic sign of fear. Turn your back and a fearful dog will rush in and nip your rear. A confident dog will bite you with a full bite and hang on and will not let go even if you kick it. Having said all that, there is always the exception to the rule and there ARE dogs (few and far between) that are genuinely so confident that they will take on anyone if the occasion arises.
Pretty much what Kaper said. :o) To the death with a human - no. To the death with an animal....maybe, if a strong prey drive kicked in. My dogs would probably bark at an intruder if I fought back, and might even bite, but if they were hurt they would retreat. They would not bark or bite because of resource guarding, but because I am their leader, and they follow my lead. If I did not fight back my dogs would probably do nothing. I am not going to bother to set up a scenario to prove it one way or the other....I think it makes more sense to simply figure out how to protect myself. A gun is more reliable than any untrained dog.
A pet dog should been trained to be crystal clear in its mind that ALL direction on how to behave comes from its owner & however mentally challenging the situation may be, the dog should remain responsive to its owner, & not act on its own initiative. A personal protection dog would have been conditioned by a professional dog trainer to recognize & respond to a REAL threat, & it is NOT the job of a pet dog to assume the job of handling situations that it perceives to be threatening. A dog with a genetically shy [fearful] temperament & would have higher reactivity & a lower threshold to trigger stimulus than a mentally sound dog in the same situation, & in a heightened state of anxiety if flight was not an option, quickly progress from a growl to an outright bite to drive away the threat [which may be a real or perceived threat]. Few pet dogs would have the mental toughness, resilience, confidence & steady nerves to engage a real threat, & if the dog was hit remain engaged despite injury. My b*tch return to heel is something in her environment alarms her & looks to me to gauge if she should be concerned. If she read fear in me, she would react defensively & take flight to avoid it, because I could not be relied on to protect her. Edit: A professionally trained PP dog would work reliably under the direction of its handler & on its own initiative, because it had the genetic potential to be trained to do that work & then was conditioned to recognize & respond to a REAL threat. A PP dog has the independence of mind, confidence, steadfast nerves, sharp intelligence & ability to react to a situation as it was trained to do, without the direction of its handler who may been incapacitated or deployed the dog to do its job & protect while they escaped. A dog can be born with the potential to work as a protection dog, but without professional training it will remain a dog with the right mix of genetic ingredients, that may protect, but not reliably.
i'm glad you brought up the fight or flight response and how the dog can pick up only on a real response, and not a planned response for an experiment. there really isn't a good answer for this. unfortunately, i have to say it depends on the dog (if they will fight for their owner or not). individual dogs are so different and are equipped with different abilities. someone could have a basset hound who would fight to the death for its owner, while another person could have a german shepherd who would run away and fend for itself. it really all depends. i know this is not an exciting conclusion to this interesting question...sorry! were you the owner of the apbt and you went for a walk at 3am and nearly got mugged if it weren't for your dog giving protective looks? i remember that question- very interesting. oh, happy new years! i will be celebrating tomorrow night with my crazy, wonderful aunt and a bottle of fine wine and chocolates (we are of french origin) =]
I can only answer based on experience. My answer is absolutely yes they would. The bond you make with a dog is the bases for how far a dog would go and when they senses danger in my experiencece it is before most humans open there eyes and find them self in danger. I have seen this with dog sprotecting another dog also. I walk beaches in the middle of the night or out very early in the am. Im female pain issues create this need for movement to fatigue muscles and nerve endings. My dogs always keep thier eyes on me. One is a black Dane i cant see him in the dark the other a medium gray mixed breed. They had seen guys coming tossing blades yelling out and when one through a rock in my direction my mutt charged got hit with a rock when another raised a large stick i yelled i wouldn't do that knowing how York would react from past experience. Just as he was going to lower his arm boom York flew into him knocking him down and now standing on his chest baring teeth growling at the others. I am scraemig to all of them freeze stay still dont move he will bite so will she as she is now defending him. He has never bitten anyone just scared them to death. I called them several times and they came one at a time. They sensed no fear from me until my female ran up on the frist guy growling and barking. My fear was for her not me. Walking with two loyal large dogs i have never felt unsafe plus i carry back up. They sensed danger rightfully so and they have always had a good sense of bad people even on a leash they have this low growl under thier breath and a head turning stare. They usually just get close to me when others approach in the dark. All my mothers danes sized people up and most all my dogs do to. If thy don'tt feel good about someone they get between me or my kid and that person even when i'm talking to them. Makes me wonder about what they know i don't. The dogs don't even like people rough housing around with those they feel are theirs or even when men and women they don't know are fighting the look very concerned. I always say if kids and dogs don't like you you dont belong in my world. Thier senses, and perseptions are not effected by outside influences and unrelated bs like us. So absolutly dogs risk it all for their family and others. Look at how many sleeping people have been saved in fires by a dog. Dog don't naturely head into fires they run.
Yep - you can't set up an experiment where humans try to simulate fear. A dog senses fear through its NOSE - smelling the changes in your body chemistry. Yes a dog can recognize emotions conveyed through facial expressions, but with fear, smell comes first. I disagree that a dog would not fight to protect you unless it was trained to protect. The dog might have been born with a human-aggressive temperament or might have been conditioned to have one. The dog isn't simply protecting you though. It would be doing its part to protect you, its own self, and the others it identifies as being part of its ... group/pack/family, whatever you want to call it. It's not going through the thought process of "I must protect master because that is my role", or "master isn't equipped to protect him/herself" It's basically just reacting to "stranger danger!" and attacking those who are the strangers. Or, depending on its temperament, conditioning and/or specific training, it might react with fear instead of aggression and not attack. Fight or Flight.
3 of my dogs will and do guard me from anything that would be considered out of the norm. That could be a stranger that he won't let get near me or the snake I saw the other day. NO stranger enters a safe zone around me until I say OK, which would be guarding, however if that human does continue towards me my Rottweiler will not even consider flight. Is that protecting me or himself? They let any stranger around them if I am not in the picture. You have to consider that all of the body changes with true fear in a human can manifest in seconds, and in a dog that is intune with the owner can pick up on that in those seconds. For example, when I saw the snake it wasn't "Hey there is a snake I don't like snakes so I think my body might decide to react". In a split second I was frozen. (Hey it was my neighbors big damn Python) My dogs are not afraid of snakes, they play with them, but in less then 2 minutes said snake had 3 dogs on top of that sucker may he RIP. So was that for me or something else. IMHO it depends on the dog and how intune the dog is to the human. think about, say a seizure dog. The dog is so intune to the human that it knows long before the human does that there is a problem. Very few dogs are capable of this but there are few dogs that have the capability to react in all situations, but they are feeding of of the humans chemical changes. There are no clear answers, we can't read a dogs mind. Need more coffee
Reading the situtation with your two female friends, gave me goosebumps! I had a similar situation about a year ago. My husband worked in Mississippi, and I live in Louisiana, and I was a nursing student who was gone most of the day. While I was gone, I would leave my 3 Dachshunds in our fenced in backyard. I came home one day from school to find my door wide open. I slowly walked around to the gate on our fence, and let Bellah, Rocky, and Edward (r.i.p.) out. I then reached into my purse and grabbed my pepper spray. My mom was with me at the time, so she stood at the door and watched. She told me that there was a man standing in my laundry room. I started to dial for the police, and the man ran at us. About this time, my babies ran around the corner (alerted by the sound of our yelling), and started biting the man. Bellah, my 2 yo female, sustained a broken rib from kicking and the other two managed to evade being hurt (thank the lord)! The man had pepper spray in his eyes and bite and scratch marks on his hands and legs. He tried to tell the police that my pets had attacked him while he was walking, but my neighbors and my mom had witnessed the event and sided with me. In short, I believe that my pets instincts did kick in and they did come to my aid. The only training they have besides obedience training is they compete in field trials.
So ... many ... words... But so many people love their dog and think they feel the same way. The dog is thinking for themselves but the owner is to close and blind to see they love themselves more. Guard dogs on the other hand... naaah I won't go there.